[Stackless] Re: Stackless Python Logic Variables?

Christian Tismer tismer at tismer.com
Wed Jun 11 03:04:59 CEST 2003

Hi Andrew,

> hmmmm. 

This comment is about alomst right. :-/

> stackless python is very much tismer's personal work and it
> looks like you've annoyed him by barging in with a pep rather than
> discussing the issues first (apologies if this is wide of the mark).

Having re-read what I wrote, I have to state that I'd prefer
not having written what is written, since I was in quite some
mood. On the other hand, I'm rather often in some mood, so this
is part of me, and I need to deal with it.

> i'm not sure asking a bunch of people from some other language/list to
> send mail to him is going to help:
> (1) sounds like it might be better to get involved in a discussion on
> that list about ways of making multi-threaded programming easier and
> find out what people there actually want, seeing to what extent logic
> variables can help.  that way you can get a solution that fits in with
> the language and has consensus support.
> it may also be that some people on the list don't know that much about
> declarative concurrency (in which case suggesting chapter 4 of the
> book at http://www.info.ucl.ac.be/~pvr/ might be worthwhile).

At least for me, the latter is true. Over the years (and they have
piled up a little, meanwhile), I got a bit tired of reading interesting
somethings that engaged people were trying me to read, finally.
I'd like to beg your pardon about that. I consider this a weakness
of age, although this fight is still open and will hopefully stay
open for at least another 35 years.
Having that said, I think this age is over, and I'm ready again
to read and digest everything, after I have found, accepted,
and overcome my personal limits.

> (2) a lot is going to depend on playing nicely with the rest of
> python's syntax and semantics.  you might find that you can do all you
> need without changing the language (via some classes in a module).  i
> can't imagine python as python without keeping a lot of mutable
> state...

Have a look at Python generators, and the small, light syntax changes
that it introduced. This is kind of artwork. It is a great balance
between the language and the implementation, which I really love
and appreciate. I'm pretty convinced that thece nice, new features,
which also have made their way into the standard library, would
probably not exist without Stackless' way too loud, too pushy,
and too invasive way. Finally, I do make the simple claim that
after all, things worked out nicely. If Stackless did introduce
just this move, it did introduce it, and this is worth all of it.

> also, bear in mind that this could cause even more headaches in the
> balance tismer has to keep between standard and stackless python (i
> don't know what's going on there - seems kind of weird that standard
> python didn't go stackless a long time ago...).

I believe I had the chance, but missed it. I was very much after
continuations, way too much. Nowadays, dissing continuations
wholeheartedly doesn't heal my former sacrifice -- Stackless is
banned once and for all time.
Not *that* bad for me, since I still have customers who want me
to port banned software for them. :-)

> gvr sometimes comes
> across as pretty anti-functional, so moving in a declarative direction
> could be difficult.

Fortunately not my deal --  I was never really sectarian about
the functional approach.

> hope this doesn't come across as too "political".  i have sympathy
> with both sides here.

You gathered mine, as well, while you might notice my somewhat
restricted insightfulness, of course.

>>If anyone has the proof Christian Tismer has requested, this may be the big
>>chance to see an implementation of logic variables wend its way to a large
>>user base.

Please, don't over-estimate that one of my statements. As I tried
to explain, this is no final thought which I think every day.
I was just captured as a snap-shot in a bad mood.
Sure, a good proof would be more than motivating, since all my
friends know how much I love math...
I anyway hereby sware to catch up with the current standards
of knowledge, ASAIC.

Anyway, I'd like to take back everything that made people not
respond in the last weeks. Please accept that I'm very open
for any kind of discussion, that I'm willing to thoroughly
reply to any kind of serious request, and that I really will
not run that buggy BOT any longer, quibbling under my name.

lots-o-new-ideas-are-popping-up -- ly y'rs -- chris

Christian Tismer             :^)   <mailto:tismer at tismer.com>
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