[Stackless] Practical uses of stackless technology

Richard Tew richard.m.tew at gmail.com
Mon Oct 23 18:51:43 CEST 2006


On 10/23/06, Carl Friedrich Bolz <cfbolz at gmx.de> wrote:
> Being technical hacker types, we can cope with describing the ins and
> outs of how our code works, but are less sure on the motivations for
> stackless-style technologies as used in real-world applications  :)
> (especially since this part of PyPy is not used for any applications
> yet).
>
> So this is where we come to you, the existing stackless community: why
> are you interested in stackless? What benefits does it bring to you and
> your business? (the EU always likes to hear that businesses are using
> things  :)

The advantage of using Python is that it allows you to write readable
code which you can come back to at a later date and find almost as
approachable and can still maintain because of this.  And not surprisingly
this is something which Python is known for.

And readability is what I think of, when I think of the primary
benefit of using Stackless.  Through the use of tasklets and channels
almost anything can be hidden behind a synchronous call, naturally
extending the readability of Python by allowing a large disregard
for techniques like callbacks and the need to otherwise use
lots of boilerplate.  That you can just schedule functions as
microthreads through tasklets, and have them predictably
scheduled through cooperative multitasking fleshes this out.

This is what I think of as I use Stackless every day at CCP.  The
natural way it enhances Python to allow writing of simple and readable
code.  And this was the reason that CCP chose Stackless.  The first
requirement in the design of our server was that writing game logic be
as simple as possible and we saw cooperative multitasking as the
way to do this.  We evaluated several solutions but when we came
across Python and the Stackless extension, to quote Hilmar (our
CEO) "we felt we had heaven in our hands".

> As well as the more general stackless ideas (tasklets, channels, etc) we
> are interested in hearing about any use people are making of the tasklet
> pickling features.

We do not use this at CCP, and I do not use it in my own projects either.

> It would be wonderful if we could get some nice quotable, attributable
> snippets, but general ideas would also be very welcome.

The quote that Hilmar, CEO of CCP gave to put on python.org was:

"Python enabled us to create EVE Online, a massive multiplayer game,
in record time. The EVE Online server cluster runs over 25,000
simultaneous players in a shared space simulation, most of which is
created in Python. The flexibilities of Python have enabled us to
quickly improve the game experience based on player feedback," said
Hilmar Veigar Petursson of CCP Games.

Given our requirement for cooperative scheduling, it is not hard to
see that this
is as much talking about Stackless and its tasklets and channels as it is
Python itself.

I can ask Hilmar to give a customised version of this or something
similar if you find it suitable?

I also like the quote by Josh Ritter from the Stackless applications page.
http://www.stackless.com/wiki/Applications

"It's very important that scriptors can generate code for both the
client and server in (relatively) anonymous functions. It's also
critical they don't have to manage a lot of bookkeeping code for
performance and integration. Stackless's tasklets and channels are a
very good fit for exactly this... they have a very natural feel when
compared to python generator functions. It's cool that something as
mind melting as coroutines can actually make it easier for
non-programmers to write code!!!"

Hope this helps,
Richard.

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